tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post986796689767829847..comments2023-03-31T05:59:51.984-07:00Comments on The Mule: Crying It Out - The Damage We Can Measure, The Damage We Can'tThe Mulehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-3869138139776258672012-12-24T01:05:33.666-08:002012-12-24T01:05:33.666-08:00There is a middle ground here. I beleive (and rese...There is a middle ground here. I beleive (and research backs up; like the cortisol thing) that prolonged unattended crying changes brain development. I personally believe negatively though of course as you say, it can't really be proven. However, as a Mum who suffered PTSD I needed to get my son to sleep as extreme sleep deprivation was making it worse and, like most Mums know, making me crazy. BUT you CAN do it without leaving your child to cry alone. I have never left my now 2.5 year old alone to cry. We tried co-sleeping but it didn't work for us (I'm hoping next baby (22weeks pregnant) will be more receptive. And I know what you're thinking, "all babies love co-sleeping!" I used to think that too and wouldn't have really believed a Mum who said otherwise) and my son slept through from 5.5months old but we never ever left him to cry or didn't respond to him at night (or any other time of course!) There are lots of ways to teach your child to sleep sensitively while being responsive and attending to their needs so all I mean to say is, I totally agree Gina Ford, Tizzie Hall and the others and CIO is awful and damaging BUT if you're very sleep deprived you can still help your baby to sleep without resorting to that (and it doesn't take too long either) :) xCatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-15896392962231792812012-11-15T01:31:23.715-08:002012-11-15T01:31:23.715-08:00An eye opening read, I have never left my children...An eye opening read, I have never left my children to cry and they are very happy, empathic and independent. I however am a mess, even as a child I was detached from others, touch scared me and when I was upset I made sure to go be alone to cry even when very young, when scared I wouldn't go to a parent, I locked myself in my room and sat on my bed until it passed. I wish my parents were alive to ask them just what happened to me as a baby to cause such horrific emotional disconnection I still feel as an adult but thankfully have the opposite of this for my own children who I have incredible empathy withKittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724764494541225653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-45217967340993471672012-09-11T11:53:16.856-07:002012-09-11T11:53:16.856-07:00Yes, of course I insist that 'there is underly...Yes, of course I insist that 'there is underlying trauma that we just can't see'! I'm a psychotherapist! We specialise in working with people who have 'underlying trauma you can't see', they are called mental health problems - the 'biggies' like personality disorder, addiction, eating disorder, depression, and the 'smallies', like never being happy or comfortable in relationships, never really liking yourself, never being able to trust yourself, or just generally finding life difficult and unmanageable. <br /><br />It would be almost impossible to pin down the actual effects of CIO on each individual and separate them out from other factors that may contribute to difficulties later in life. But it is glib and ill informed to say, 'my baby is happy and healthy', therefore no harm has been done (by CIO or any other parenting choice for that matter!) Everything we do as parents has an effect, often that cannot be seen for many years to come and certainly that cannot easily be measured by any researcher. <br /><br />If you think that you have done the right thing, then I really do genuinely wish you well, I am sure you have made other good parenting choices and you obviously care and think about your decisions or you would not be reading a post like this. <br /><br />The intention of this article is not to put pressure on parents, but simply to encourage thoughtful debate.The Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-66864599346199659892012-09-11T11:13:50.111-07:002012-09-11T11:13:50.111-07:00What she said. Thanks Boo. : )What she said. Thanks Boo. : )Clairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264862035099906778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-68061309658864638262012-09-10T17:28:12.630-07:002012-09-10T17:28:12.630-07:00You'd be interested to read the following arti...You'd be interested to read the following article summarising an empirical research of controlled crying - http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/for-crying-out-loud-study-backs-baby-sleep-strategies-20120911-25p2a.html<br /><br />I'm not sure why you don't understand your article is irrational and alarmist when you use words like "trauma" and infer that CC leads to permanent changes to a develping brain. I'm not even sure why you mentioned Romanian orphans. This is like discussing the emotional effect of having an argument with your spouse then mentioning the impact of violent spousal abuse. You say babies left to cry will have varying degrees of "damage" when this is plainly unsupported by evidence. Countless parents will testify that they used CC and their babies are healthy and happy - or will you insist there are underlying trauma we just can't see?<br /><br />If a parent decides to comfort their baby at every cry, that's their choice. But when you write articles like this it puts unfair and unnecessary pressure on parents.<br /><br />I don't need luck in CC. It was the right thing to do.boonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-80865328063026900582012-09-06T13:04:17.806-07:002012-09-06T13:04:17.806-07:00Sorry you didn't like it Boo. I'm not sure...Sorry you didn't like it Boo. I'm not sure which of my comments in particular you perceived as 'irrational alarmist warnings of permanent trauma'. <br />We all parent differently and one person's 'whinge' is another's call for comfort.<br />Good luck in your choices anyway xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-3520592653141381532012-09-06T04:39:36.003-07:002012-09-06T04:39:36.003-07:00I absolutely disagree. I learnt very early on to d...I absolutely disagree. I learnt very early on to distinguish between a whining cry vs a distraught, emotional cry of need. When my son was a baby he often got cranky and whinged as he drifted off to sleep. I recognised it as such and left him alone, unless I recognised his more upset cry when he needed something. Adults communicate through different tones and I think it's reasonable to posit that babies do this as well. <br /><br />I'm generally interested to understand other parents' viewpoints but when you pepper your article with irrational alarmist warnings of permanent trauma, it is not a credible read. boonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-60745859500584376282012-06-10T12:38:44.859-07:002012-06-10T12:38:44.859-07:00Thanks for your comment Anon. I totally understand...Thanks for your comment Anon. I totally understand your struggle with sleep deprivation, it is extremely hard and I have gone through it with 2 children now. What I would say is that it does get better by itself and there are also ways of gently night weaning when this is age appropriate, without just cold turkey CIO, that you could investigate.<br />Regarding your first question, we need to be VERY clear about the distinction between leaving a distressed child alone and allowing them to 'cry in arms'. By comforting our babies we teach them about comfort and that their distress is manageable, and this is essential to their future mental health. Giving comfort does NOT mean, trying to stop them crying. <br />I wish you the best whatever you choose, and hope you get that much needed sleep soon xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-16975635393426963072012-06-09T15:44:14.344-07:002012-06-09T15:44:14.344-07:00Isn't part of the reason CIO is considered ...Isn't part of the reason CIO is considered 'bad' because you are allowing the distress of another person? Because elsewhere in a response to an anon you hint that she might find the distress of another person difficult to cope with like that's a bad thing. The distress of a baby IS difficult to cope with. So is lack of sleep. I simply can NOT sleep through a baby suckling. If I could I'd probably be cosleeping. I can relax, but I can't SLEEP. My back aches from sleeping in a position that allows nursing. I know because the more times my child wakes up to nurse the worse my back feels. There are plenty of studies that link poor sleep to diseases like diabetes and more. So I think it is wholly unfair to put mom's sleep against baby's sleep.<br /><br />The way I see CIO (which is one aspect of one whole book on sleep training--not the whole 'method' of most sleep training) is that it is a necessary way to break sleep associations. It is not to help the child learn much beyond that. I've been having to wake up between 3 and 6 times a night to nurse my child back to sleep. I can NOT do this until he's weaned. Unless I want to be so tired and grouchy during the day that I'm a worse mother. He is used to nursing to return to sleep and that's what he wants or needs. But one person's needs cannot completely usurp the needs of the other or else there is imbalance and a lot of difficulty. My baby needs more uninterrupted sleep than he gets...I need more uninterrupted sleep than he gives me. So pretty soon I'm going to do some more sleep training and it will involve hubby checking in on baby instead of me every other time until he is able to go longer between wakings and learns to fall asleep without nursing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-32818841835347408752012-05-29T13:11:47.710-07:002012-05-29T13:11:47.710-07:00Well I think on most points we will have to agree ...Well I think on most points we will have to agree to disagree Anon. I'm afraid I am too tired to respond to you in any more detail than that! xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-21077039640274770002012-05-29T13:10:30.377-07:002012-05-29T13:10:30.377-07:00Thanks Mama Mo, I do agree with you about flexible...Thanks Mama Mo, I do agree with you about flexible boobs! What a lifesaver! xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-54230270544341925802012-05-27T12:27:23.286-07:002012-05-27T12:27:23.286-07:00There are many ways to comfort a crying child, hol...There are many ways to comfort a crying child, holding being only one of them. Babies can be comforted in their cots wo immediately taking them out and/or nursing them. Swaddling, rubbing/patting/rocking, pacifiers, singing/humming/white noise & soft comforting words are all a part of that. So is routine. Babies and children thrive on routine/ knowing what to expect. So as much as was said about babies feeling hopeless & helpless if not held when crying, & thus giving up on crying out because they were "trained" (have learned by routine) that no one cares enough to come to them, babies can also be positively trained to fall asleep in the cot (yes, gently) wo having to be constantly held, nor neglected. This begins during the day with healthy eat/wake/sleep routines that work in establishing their inner biological clock and patterns. This means not feeding them only because they are crying, nor does it mean not feeding them yet because the clock says it is not time - either way lacks judgement. Flexible schedules are essential for a healthy night time sleep for baby and mom. Sleep is very important to the brain of mom & baby in the production of hormones and brain chemicals (like seritonin, which the lack there of causes much depression and is suspect in SIDS) that are only produced during night sleep and cannot be made up for during day naps for momma, therefore it is very important that mom, too, gets plenty of sleep. To say that mom does not need a good night sleep because she is an adult and can control herself is to leave off your research with baby and ignore the basic and much studied needs of the adult brain. This leaves the article unbalanced, thus, unfair (& unrealistic) to Momma. In hard cases, like colic (or whatever the mom of the family considers "hard"), perhaps mom can find help through a trained Newborn Care Specialist (if not from close family/friends) to help at night so that mom can get the rest she needs as well, without guilt for not holding her child 24/7.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-90556398822993563592012-05-25T11:56:30.400-07:002012-05-25T11:56:30.400-07:00I had severe PPD with my reflux-ing colicky preter...I had severe PPD with my reflux-ing colicky preterm twins. But hearing them cry made me feel worse, so I never let it happen. Even in my compounded sleep deprived state I knew that I needed to be there for them because I was the mother. Learning to nurse them both while laying down (facilitated by large, "flexible" boobs :-) was the best thing EVER. <br /><br />My two year olds are happy healthy and good sleepers. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but responding worked to create the mother-children dynamic I sought. <br /><br />Thank you for an informative well-felt article.Mama Mohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08554633560302397335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-58283363748507994692012-03-19T06:16:55.439-07:002012-03-19T06:16:55.439-07:00In our family we have managed the sleep deprivatio...In our family we have managed the sleep deprivation by co-sleeping, I realise this is not for everyone, but it has truly worked for us. I have to be honest though, that even if there was a reason why we were not able to co-sleep, there is no way I could ever resort to CIO. I would rather be on my knees with tiredness than leave my own baby to cry, even for a few minutes. The way I see it, I am the adult, and need to learn to cope and be strong even when tired, rather than let them 'take the hit'. And I'm never sure of your argument that a sleep deprived mother is damaging to mental health, nor am I sure that your statement that it is a precursor to PND is evidence based. PND is complicated and not simply caused by environmental factors such as tiredness, I'm afraid this view is too simplistic.<br />Anyway, thank you for your comment. You are dead right that we lack support in the West. xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-88082873399442609072012-03-19T06:08:34.937-07:002012-03-19T06:08:34.937-07:00That's a great link, thanks Donna. xThat's a great link, thanks Donna. xThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-65507017055747988422012-03-18T21:08:51.050-07:002012-03-18T21:08:51.050-07:00Very interesting. I think that a sleep deprived mo...Very interesting. I think that a sleep deprived mother is also very damaging to her mental health and that of her family, and there are degrees of night waking that need to be managed in a loving way which may mean baby cries but not necessarily 'abandoned' to self sooth. Its all about moderation and anything to extreme is damaging. Westernised cultures don't often have the luxury of extended family to help support a mum and night waking can be incredibly debilitating and a pre cursor to post natal depression. Babies definitely learn sleep cues and sleep association from an early age. Personality, physiology and environment are all important factors in a baby's night waking.Gaurdian Angelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12413737856769743747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-88723667978246430852012-03-18T18:37:34.843-07:002012-03-18T18:37:34.843-07:00"The practice of leaving a baby to cry alone ..."The practice of leaving a baby to cry alone in a cot in order to encourage them to learn to be less dependent on their parents at night is so common and widespread in our culture that it is considered an absolutely normal if not essential part of a baby's first year."<br /><br />Psychotherapist Karen Walant uses the term 'normative abuse' - "Society (at least in the Western World) has encouraged a number of parenting practices that I call "normative abuse." "Normative," because these are approaches that are sanctioned by society, therefore enacted without any moral discomfort. By normative, I mean practices which appear normal for our culture."<br />http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/karen_walant.htmlDonnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03660299653534277367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-74382955300379501472012-02-09T01:32:32.337-08:002012-02-09T01:32:32.337-08:00SO Anon...at what age do you believe a baby develo...SO Anon...at what age do you believe a baby develops object permanence. could you give reference for this please? and yes, it is different to Romanian orphans, that is precisely what i have said in the article. and no, i don't agree that responding to a crying baby will overstimulate them...if you feel this is the case, holding them and rocking gently in a darkened room would be my preference over leaving them completely alone in their distress.<br />Thanks for your comment.The Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-86977448576799520522012-02-08T21:46:34.802-08:002012-02-08T21:46:34.802-08:00If you train a baby to sleep once they have object...If you train a baby to sleep once they have object permanence and know you are returning (NOT at 6 months, please!), and if you give them love and affection and are sensitively responsive in terms of attachment theory, that is quite different than neglected Romanian orphans who did not have a consistent attachment figure. Also, isn't it possible sometimes a baby cries because they are overtired and responding will overstimulate them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-32684066548275619792011-12-18T00:25:11.160-08:002011-12-18T00:25:11.160-08:00thank you so much Kate! xxxthank you so much Kate! xxxThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-42430121081509703472011-12-17T18:52:02.253-08:002011-12-17T18:52:02.253-08:00What a great post!
Thankful for putting into words...What a great post!<br />Thankful for putting into words things I have found confusing about CIO for a long time.<br /><br />I just never understood how 'experts' could advocate for CIO when it went against so many of the basics of child development. This has put into simple terms why CIO doesn't work the way some people think it does... little babies just don't have the cognitive development to understand the intent.<br /><br />And this is not about how much your baby cries. I had prem twins with severe reflux who cried A LOT and sometimes nothing I did made any difference and sometimes I had to walk away to save my sanity and keep them safe. But I walked away after being responsive, after rocking and soothing and singing and standing on my head... I walked away after showing them I cared, that they were not alone and I came back and did it all again.katepicklehttp://www.picklebums.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-86550240904408609322011-12-08T06:13:16.808-08:002011-12-08T06:13:16.808-08:00What a wonderful comment Missy. I promise you I wi...What a wonderful comment Missy. I promise you I will remember YOUR words next time I am up late trying to write something meaningful!<br />Thank you xxxThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-59841811055526073162011-12-08T02:35:39.511-08:002011-12-08T02:35:39.511-08:00Hello!
I am finishing my degree in Biology and I...Hello! <br /><br />I am finishing my degree in Biology and I don't have any kids of my own so I feel hesitant to respond to this post. I don't know what it is like to be a mother and to hear my child cry. I can't even come close to understanding what moms have to do when a baby is crying relentlessly. <br /><br />What I do know is that I was an extremely colicky baby and that must have been hard on my mum. Apparently my tongue was too long and it made it hard for me to breathe but the doctors weren't sure why I was this way. <br /><br />I feel so bad for the sleepless nights I caused my mum. She tells me how hard it was to leave me to cry and she would sing to me at the door when she couldn't hold me anymore and she would sometimes just have to leave me to cry because there was nothing more to be done and she somehow knew that it would be okay, even though it didn't feel that way. <br /><br />What I would like to say to you personally is: "Thank-you." <br /><br />Thank you for helping me understand a little more. Thank you for writing an article that is open-ended and stirs up discussion. Thank you for citing your sources and providing the opportunity to learn for both mothers and mothers-to-be. Thank you for showing me that I can be a mum and still be a Scientist. Because if you can write as you do while raising two children and endure the sleepless nights then maybe I could do that too. <br /><br />So, thank you. I hope you get some sleep tonight. I won't be because I will be studying, but maybe one-day I too will have a crying baby and I promise you that I will remember this post. <br /><br />Night.Missyhttp://livelovebio.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-35364024259967762552011-12-08T00:44:33.191-08:002011-12-08T00:44:33.191-08:00To the first Anon, no, I am not saying that 'd...To the first Anon, no, I am not saying that 'distressed crying can cause brain damage.' I'm saying, 'it's more complicated than that', and the main thing I am saying is that offering comfort is the most important thing we can do as parents. Both my own babies had 'fussy evenings' and cried a great deal from about 6 weeks onwards, which I found terribly hard. But myself or my partner would hold them and try to offer comfort as best we could. It is holding and comforting that is of such great importance.<br />To the second anon I do hope you are getting some support. Perhaps you are finding the distress of another person hard to cope with, as I described in my article. To both of you I reiterate that holding a crying baby is NOT the same as a baby crying alone.<br />A good article to read is: http://www.awareparenting.com/comfort.htm<br />Warm wishes to you both xxxThe Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06786143388807016249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-408457313131912061.post-8925283186400726452011-12-07T22:54:29.553-08:002011-12-07T22:54:29.553-08:00Great article! But as the mum to a very colicky 2 ...Great article! But as the mum to a very colicky 2 mo old, these discussions just make me feel worse. We have done everything we can think of to keep our little girl from crying but sometimes the safest and best thing is to put her down in her crib and walk away. I hate doing this and reading about the effects of unattended crying just adds to my hurt. I wear her in a carrier all day and by bedtime I am too exhausted to walk/bounce her to sleep. So more often than not she cries herself to sleep in her cosleeper while I try to rock/sooth her and cry myself. Please consider that for some families putting a crying baby down is a last resort and done for the baby's wellbeing and safety. I am not selfishly trying to get her to sleep so I can get my beauty rest, I put her down and sometimes walk away so I don't accidentally hurt her in my frustration and exhaustion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com